not the river

durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

forget it.

his range on the flop is much wider than on the river when he takes you to value town

it does include oesd draws and TT+, especially if youre going to fold kings EVER, because it makes you extremely EXPLOITABLE

scuba folds...maybe 50% of the time to a shove here...im shipping oesd after your raise.....you have to have a 9 or 88 to call me? SHIP, watch you fold...then laugh with glee as i show you trash.

Let's say the guy pushes instead of over calls...

Areaman, I definitely agree that the range on the flop is broader here than it is on the river for our villain. And Scuba's statement that it doesn't matter whether it was the flop or the river I think is a little off base. People like getting their money in on the flop when they don't really know what's going on in the hand. It's like in baseball when the tie always goes to the runner, but in the brain of some poker players, when they are split between whether or not they are winning or losing on the flop...the answer is shove, whereas on the river, in the same poker players mind...the debate is between calling and folding. But river raising is a topic for another day I'd say. But just the same, some of that depends on what kind of player he is too. But yeah, the third raise on this flop at the stakes we typically play though...I think it means a huge hand.

But let's get back to how the hand actually played out...

In Scuba's defense though, I don't think there's anything wrong with raising the flop. Tens thru Queens are possible here for the original raiser and he gets put in a tough spot here. Even an aggressive player that knows that Scuba is not straightforward by any means might think of making a play with a hand like 7/7 or any two cards if Scuba puts in a raise. Someone might go bonkers with A/K thinking even if his bluff does not work, he has 6 live outs. I think there is value to be had in raising here in a lot of situations (if the original raiser is tilting being one of them that sticks out in my mind). This is poker, you know that game where every idiot under the sun is ready to put in every dollar he has drawing to two goddamn outs? We play this game all the time. There is plenty of value to raising when you are ahead. It's also possible that the player behind you (seeing as he was the 2nd person to call the raise getting a discount) has a less than stellar hand that hasn't made it home yet (a straight draw of some kind), and that's not the hand you want to be up against here, we'd rather isolate against the original raiser, who almost all of the time we are going to have the best hand against by the river. But what do you do, Areaman, if you have two queens and Scuba raises you on this board? It's not an automatic decision, and if it is...well, I think you know how bad that is. Hell if I have an overpair and Scuba raises this flop, the hand gets really damn interesting, and it probably plays out different ways depending on a lot of variables. Some of the time I probably lose a decent sized pot depending on the scenario. Granted the knowledge that he doesn't like to slowplay may make a laydown easier on a board like this, but still. Let's say he doesn't raise the flop. Let's say he just cold calls the flop bet, and there's a second call behind, as it seems obvious by now that's how it would have played out judging by the over obvious smooth overcall...in a game where you don't know the guy behind you, that call could mean a lot of things. Maybe he's a bad player with an 8, maybe even Q/J...Christ who knows anymore, maybe it's a tricky player with air. It also sets you up to be able to be bluffed on the river some of the times you are ahead, and it might make you pay off some of the times you are beat. Here, Scuba got his information that he was beat, he just didn't follow through with it, and yeah I'm guilty of that too. A raise helps you make the best possible decision a lot of the time, in my opinion. But that's just me, and I'm sure there are excellent counter points to be made for playing it both ways on the flop, that's what makes this game fun.

A smooth call is not a bad play in this spot by any means though, at least not in my opinion. I don't have any problem with your analysis of the hand in a lot of ways Area, I think a deceptive smooth call here most of the time gets you heads up with a hand that no one is really going to put you on. I think it's probably fine to play it either way, I just don't understand why you don't "get" the flop raise.

And I'm going to bed.

Dozo, I figure you're going to read this at work...why don't you throw a long winded post in here too just for the hell of it?

There's already been a lot of good things said about this hand by multiple posters, but I'll attempt to throw in my .02 per request of BVI, as tonight is BVI Night #2 so it's all about him :)

After reading all the responses the first thing I want to say is that this hand, just like most others, isn't black and white, and thinking that it is really just shows a lack of understanding of poker theory and for the game of poker in general. I know it's cheesy,but "In no limit texas hold 'em, we vary our play." Do I particularily like the smooth call with KK? No, but I understand what Scuba's trying to do here, especially being in postion in what is currently just a heads up pot. Maybe Scuba had a read that the blinds were tight and there was a good chance the pot was going to be heads up or 3 handed at most, and being in the cut-off I don't mind just smooth calling here in order to disguise your hand and win a big pot on the right board.

However, when a board comes like this I think you have to be willing to just get rid of your hand. When you get cold called by the third player in the hand where there's a raise and reraise on the flop, I think you basically need to just give up unless you hit a k, depending on who the player is. While I agree that this players range is much wider on the flop, most players in that game don't have the capability of firing on the river with a busted draw and/or a hand like 10's or even J's.

I don't mind your raise on the flop, though I'm not ecstatic about it either. By raising, you're building a rather large pot without having any idea where you are in the hand, and while this raise may be to gather some information about your opponents holdings, it's costing you much more to do now than it would have to do it before the flop. With an opponent behind you, you're basically only getting called by a hand that beats you, except for possibly a hand like QQ or JJ, maybe 10's, but I don't think the 3rd opponent in the hand calls with the later two hands, so in essence you're turning your hand into a bluff. By just calling, you may be allowing a player to make a draw such as J10, or you may be losing a bit of value from QQ or JJ, but you're also risking less on a somewhat scary board that you decided to try and trap on. Sometimes when you trap, you trap yourself, and I think the key thing to understand here is that you only had 12 invested, and that going nuts with just one pair here is kind of spewy.

I think the line I would have taken had I choosen to play KK that way preflop would probably be similar to yours, though I really don't ever flat in the CO with KK. I think just calling the flop and seeing what happens on the turn is the best line, as you're basically only getting your raise called by hands that are beating you, so either way ahead or way behind. And with only 12 invested, theres no reason to lose a lot of chips, if somebody makes a play on you with a busted draw or something, good for them, but there's so many better spots in that game to get your money in, where you can be certain that you're ahead.

The board is the key in this spot, you tried to trap and got a board which really isnt the best to trap on. If the board was Q 6 2 or something like that then it's a different story, but in this spot theres no reason to go nuts with one pair where your edge in that game is higher than your perceived equity in this hand.

im not saying TT-AA is an autofold on that flop if the pot was headsup, but i certainly think its close.
i would go with my read and raise if was oop or fold, the pot size is getting out of hand and you have no way to control it, youre oop on a scary board. if you just call and he fires 150 on the turn, then what? call again and hope he doesnt fire the river? you really have to plan ahead here or youre going to the felt.