Posted By: BVI
Which is why it's such a great board to raise people on, and a lot of people know that very fact too...which causes action. A lot of people won't give you credit for a nine here because the standard way to play a nine for most players here is to call the flop and raise the turn. I think the raise on the flop is more deceptive than people are really giving it credit for here.

or i fold my TT-QQ and you dont get any value out of your kings because im not looking to play a huge pot oop on that board...a flop raise scares off the customer...
the guy you have drawing to 2 or 3 outs.

theres no way queens check a brick turn, the guy is going to double barrell here a good percentage of the time. i dont want to lose a bet from him or scare him off.

also, if you just call and a guy calls behind you, i think its a fairly easy check on the turn.

the only problem, is if the original raiser fires out a huge bet on the turn, then youre in a predicament.

Ok, we have some discussion. I love it. First Areaman, easy with the hostility man. You can have an opinion, you usually do, but describing the flop raise as horrible? come on. Ok so here is my thinking on the hand. I re-raise pre-flop with K-K there 95% of the time. I am certainly a player that advocates not slow-playing big pairs pre-flop. However, If I always do something, i become as readable as a book. But my goal is to be as readable as one of areaman's hand histories!! The game I play at, 2nd raises pre-flop usually defines the hand pretty well. I also smooth call a raise in the game with alot of hands. My kings are disguised here. The intial raiser in this hand was chasing money, and was in bad position. i thought by cold-calling pre-flop, i could get 1 to 2 callers behind, and disguise how big my hand was, possibly sticking the intial raiser, which i dont read as tight. Why would anyone trap a tight player with kings?

On the flop, 9-9-8 isnt a welcome flop, as 10-9 can easily call a pre-flop raise in these games, but isnt that bad either. much better than an ace flopping. Three people seeing a flop, odds are pretty good I still have the best hand. I have no read on the player behind. He is the most likely to have a 9 here. But of course, if we look at areaman's line, which is full of inconsistencies, just like his poker game. In one post, he says that the third players range includes pocket pairs under kings and an oesd, but then in another post, he says there is no way I can get any value from those holdings by raising. Sphincter says huh? I dont think that players at this cash game easily fold an over pair under Kings, or an oesd here. But if its 50/50 on call or fold with this range, then its is obviously better for me to raise then smooth call. 9-9-8 is a good flop to re-raise on in a raised pot. If I dont raise with Kings here, what hands do I raise with? and lets be careful in not defining my hand by always making the same play. If i will and do raise with a 9 here, raise with a boat here, raise with an oesd here, why shouldnt i raise with kings here? The player to act behind me has a really good chance of folding unless he has trips or better. Im not thinking, oh look 9-9-8 flop, what holdings can i get value from out of the random smooth calling player to act behind me. Are you serious? He isnt the target. the target is the initial raiser who has now C-bet, and i do HAVE POSITION ON. You'd be surprised how many time i get TT-QQ to stack off oop here with he way i palyed it. if they have aces, so be it. The money should have got in pre-flop anyway. If anyone in this hand has a 9, its the guy behind me. So I raise to find out if he does. He did. I shut it down, feeling 90% sure im beat. And made a bad call on the river to see it. Nothing to be proud of for sure. But I played the hand fine IMO until i called the river. Like doggie has said and Dozo, I defined the hand by raising on the flop, shut it down, and made a tilt call instead of folding on the river.

areaman, you crack me up buddy about how 'exploitable' you feel I am. I tell you time and again when you yap in my ear all night long, that this game of poker is about adjustments. There are very few players at BP that would even think about putting in a third raise on that flop without having kings beat. So I play the opponents in the hand. If you are sitting at the table, i think your idea of shoving there with trash is much more exploitable then my willingess to fold kings to a 3-bet shove on that flop. This might be why you bust the few times you do sit down at the 1-2 live game. If you ever win enough donkaments online to build up a buy-in to the live cash game, show me how you can exploit me, please. But until then, your commetns about my bp cash game leaks dont mean too much when you cant win money at the game yourself.

Posted By: areamancan you somehow make your thoughts coherent so i can respond to them?

your best quote ever!!

you say these people arent capable of folding hands
and you dont want to make yourself readable
when someone isnt capable of folding...what difference does it make how readable you are?

Posted By: areamanyou say these people arent capable of folding hands
and you dont want to make yourself readable
when someone isnt capable of folding...what difference does it make how readable you are?

I never said these players arent capable of folding hands sir. Re-read my posts and maybe you can start to undersatnd the value of smooth calling pre-flop. "A 2nd raise defines my hand pretty well pre-flop". This is why, I chose to smooth call a player oop, that i read as "chasing money".

So you recommend a smooth-call on teh flop, then a call if the third palyer shoves? Or just hoping that the third player call behind, and then what? check-call the rest of the way, losing much more money than a raise on teh flop would? but getting tons of value from that bust straight draw and pocket tens. lol.