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    • CommentAuthorBVI
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2008
     
    "899 is an interesting board, if i get raised on it in a live game, i strongly consider folding AA-TT if i respect that persons ability and dont think they are an absolute drooler. and i honestly cant imagine how someone can raise in the position scuba is in with someone left to act without having a 9, or 88."

    Which is why it's such a great board to raise people on, and a lot of people know that very fact too...which causes action. A lot of people won't give you credit for a nine here because the standard way to play a nine for most players here is to call the flop and raise the turn. I think the raise on the flop is more deceptive than people are really giving it credit for here.

    Dozo, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree about one of your points. I think that raising the flop is actually a better excercise in pot control than smooth calling. You're smooth calling to make it rain on the turn usually I'd assume, because you're going to be faced with a big bet on the turn, and I think cold calling a pot sized bet on the turn for instance would not be that great, since everyone is going to be committed or close to it at that point usually. If the guy cold calls behind you on the flop too, and then a brick hits the turn, you're about to play a HUGE pot without any real idea what's going on. Whereas the raise on the flop allows you to get away from the hand for just that raise if you need to.

    I don't think that if you're slowplaying a hand preflop you should automatically be slowplaying it on the flop, but I think a lot of people tend to disagree with me on that front. And that's why I like this game.

    With Scuba OOP, who here is in favor of a half pot lead in on the flop? That changes the hand a lot, and possibly loses him a pretty huge pot, or possibly allows him to get away from it easier, depending on the action.
    •  
      CommentAuthorareaman
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2008 edited
     
    Posted By: BVI
    Which is why it's such a great board to raise people on, and a lot of people know that very fact too...which causes action. A lot of people won't give you credit for a nine here because the standard way to play a nine for most players here is to call the flop and raise the turn. I think the raise on the flop is more deceptive than people are really giving it credit for here.


    or i fold my TT-QQ and you dont get any value out of your kings because im not looking to play a huge pot oop on that board...a flop raise scares off the customer...
    the guy you have drawing to 2 or 3 outs.

    theres no way queens check a brick turn, the guy is going to double barrell here a good percentage of the time. i dont want to lose a bet from him or scare him off.

    also, if you just call and a guy calls behind you, i think its a fairly easy check on the turn.

    the only problem, is if the original raiser fires out a huge bet on the turn, then youre in a predicament.
    • CommentAuthorBVI
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2008
     
    Yes I think you are smart enough to dump Queens there, but this is the general poker populace we're talking about here, whose general reaction to most pots is..."so uh, I got these two cards, they're good."
  1.  
    Ok, we have some discussion. I love it. First Areaman, easy with the hostility man. You can have an opinion, you usually do, but describing the flop raise as horrible? come on. Ok so here is my thinking on the hand. I re-raise pre-flop with K-K there 95% of the time. I am certainly a player that advocates not slow-playing big pairs pre-flop. However, If I always do something, i become as readable as a book. But my goal is to be as readable as one of areaman's hand histories!! The game I play at, 2nd raises pre-flop usually defines the hand pretty well. I also smooth call a raise in the game with alot of hands. My kings are disguised here. The intial raiser in this hand was chasing money, and was in bad position. i thought by cold-calling pre-flop, i could get 1 to 2 callers behind, and disguise how big my hand was, possibly sticking the intial raiser, which i dont read as tight. Why would anyone trap a tight player with kings?

    On the flop, 9-9-8 isnt a welcome flop, as 10-9 can easily call a pre-flop raise in these games, but isnt that bad either. much better than an ace flopping. Three people seeing a flop, odds are pretty good I still have the best hand. I have no read on the player behind. He is the most likely to have a 9 here. But of course, if we look at areaman's line, which is full of inconsistencies, just like his poker game. In one post, he says that the third players range includes pocket pairs under kings and an oesd, but then in another post, he says there is no way I can get any value from those holdings by raising. Sphincter says huh? I dont think that players at this cash game easily fold an over pair under Kings, or an oesd here. But if its 50/50 on call or fold with this range, then its is obviously better for me to raise then smooth call. 9-9-8 is a good flop to re-raise on in a raised pot. If I dont raise with Kings here, what hands do I raise with? and lets be careful in not defining my hand by always making the same play. If i will and do raise with a 9 here, raise with a boat here, raise with an oesd here, why shouldnt i raise with kings here? The player to act behind me has a really good chance of folding unless he has trips or better. Im not thinking, oh look 9-9-8 flop, what holdings can i get value from out of the random smooth calling player to act behind me. Are you serious? He isnt the target. the target is the initial raiser who has now C-bet, and i do HAVE POSITION ON. You'd be surprised how many time i get TT-QQ to stack off oop here with he way i palyed it. if they have aces, so be it. The money should have got in pre-flop anyway. If anyone in this hand has a 9, its the guy behind me. So I raise to find out if he does. He did. I shut it down, feeling 90% sure im beat. And made a bad call on the river to see it. Nothing to be proud of for sure. But I played the hand fine IMO until i called the river. Like doggie has said and Dozo, I defined the hand by raising on the flop, shut it down, and made a tilt call instead of folding on the river.

    areaman, you crack me up buddy about how 'exploitable' you feel I am. I tell you time and again when you yap in my ear all night long, that this game of poker is about adjustments. There are very few players at BP that would even think about putting in a third raise on that flop without having kings beat. So I play the opponents in the hand. If you are sitting at the table, i think your idea of shoving there with trash is much more exploitable then my willingess to fold kings to a 3-bet shove on that flop. This might be why you bust the few times you do sit down at the 1-2 live game. If you ever win enough donkaments online to build up a buy-in to the live cash game, show me how you can exploit me, please. But until then, your commetns about my bp cash game leaks dont mean too much when you cant win money at the game yourself.
    •  
      CommentAuthorareaman
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2008
     
    can you somehow make your thoughts coherent so i can respond to them?
  2.  
    Posted By: areamancan you somehow make your thoughts coherent so i can respond to them?


    your best quote ever!!
    •  
      CommentAuthorareaman
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2008 edited
     
    if youre going to get value out of TT+ here why arent you reraising preflop again?

    furthermore...i find it interesting that you dont give these players credit to fold but then you try to get tricky with this hand.

    im having a hard time figuring out how youre finding an inconsistancy in the following:
    "In one post, he says that the third players range includes pocket pairs under kings and an oesd, but then in another post, he says there is no way I can get any value from those holdings by raising. "

    also, i take argument with this...
    "He isnt the target. the target is the initial raiser who has now C-bet, and i do HAVE POSITION ON. You'd be surprised how many time i get TT-QQ to stack off oop here with he way i palyed it. if they have aces, so be it."
    and hes going to bet into you again on the turn...so why are you scaring him off his hand? if he isnt going to fold, why didnt you reraise preflop? whyd you wanna play a 5 way pot with kings when your target...or the person who you think is easily going to stack off, you could have iso'd?

    and as for this..
    "But until then, your commetns about my bp cash game leaks dont mean too much when you cant win money at the game yourself. "
    dont post hands then, obviously your bp 1/2 game is flawless, and doesnt need improvement. so you probably wouldnt want advice anyways.
    •  
      CommentAuthorareaman
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2008 edited
     
    you say these people arent capable of folding hands
    and you dont want to make yourself readable
    when someone isnt capable of folding...what difference does it make how readable you are?
  3.  
    Posted By: areamancan you somehow make your thoughts coherent so i can respond to them?


    Scuba help areaman understand.

    1) Scuba have Kings
    2) 9-9-8 flop, scuba most likely ahead. Scuba likes to raise when ahead.
    3) With the action, if 3rd player plays, he is most likely playing only hands that have SCUBA beat.
    4) Scuba isnt concerned about "getting value" from the third player, as if the third player plays, he is probably ahead of SCUBA.
    5) SCUBA wants value from the C-better, this is most likely where scuba gets value
    6) If I want value out of hands that I make trips or better on this flop, i can't just raise trips or better here. I should also raise hands like oesd, and Kings.
    7) If the third player hasn't flopped a miracle flop, he typically gets out of this hand, and then I can prepare to stack off to the C-bettor. If the intial bettor has Aces or flopped trips or better, Im ok with losing my money. The player did not have more than 100xBB.

    Bottom line- I play the game aggressively. If I am most likely ahead, which I am in this scenario, i like to raise. I also define where I stand right away, possibly saving me money if played correctly. If I smooth-call on the flop, and a blanck hits, do I fold to any turn bet? Since you said its a major leak to fold kings here, obviously you recommend calling reasonable bets on the turn. I think its even weaker to show absolutely no strength in the hand, and fold to a check-half pot sized bet. So my raise, saves more money than the smooth call you recommend, if i dont play like a idiot and tilt call the river!!
  4.  
    Posted By: areamanyou say these people arent capable of folding hands
    and you dont want to make yourself readable
    when someone isnt capable of folding...what difference does it make how readable you are?


    I never said these players arent capable of folding hands sir. Re-read my posts and maybe you can start to undersatnd the value of smooth calling pre-flop. "A 2nd raise defines my hand pretty well pre-flop". This is why, I chose to smooth call a player oop, that i read as "chasing money".

    So you recommend a smooth-call on teh flop, then a call if the third palyer shoves? Or just hoping that the third player call behind, and then what? check-call the rest of the way, losing much more money than a raise on teh flop would? but getting tons of value from that bust straight draw and pocket tens. lol.
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